I was talking to a psychologist today, and he gave me a different idea of why not supplicating works, especially when YOU get the girl to buy you a drink or do something for you. I may not be remembering this right, but he said: when you do something for a HB, she will think that you're a sucker or at best a nice guy.
wayne rasmussen: Sucker is more accurate. You should engage in fair transactions not throw away you time/money/energy. If you do you are a sucker.
But if you can get her to do something for you, it makes her more attached to you and bonded to you.
SuperBobo: Cognitive dissonance -- our actions dictate our beliefs: "I did something for him. I only do stuff for people I like. Therefore I must like him."
wayne rasmussen: This is well known. If a person does a favor to you, in their mind they have to think, why did it I do this? I must like this person if I did this for if I didn't like this person I am a sucker. Since I am not a sucker I must like this person.
Rio: Interesting. I mean, it's obvious to most guys here that we shouldn't do anything for a chick for no reason. In some cases, that even means taking her out. Making a direct SOI too early on can kill things off - especially if you haven't negged first. Best use an indirect SOI, or 101 routine to do the job early on. Any time a chick sees us making an attempt to "get her", she's immediately controlling us already - therefore, she loses interest quick.
wayne rasmussen: Not always so, I have been direct and gotten laid. Beware terms like always.
Also, it plants the seed in her mind that it is easy to do a small favor or kindness for you, so that when you ask her to do something else for you (like going some place quiet) she will be less likely to offer resistance.
SuperBobo: "Foot in the Door" method of persuasion a la Cialdini.
So the message is: not only should we not supplicate, but we should try to make the girl supplicate to us (even if it's just in a small way it establishes some power over her).
Simply Genius: I'm still AFC, but I think you have hit on something that could be a useful addition to a seductionists toolkit here. I have used this myself a few days ago when visiting an HB friend who doesn't find me physically attractive. In fact I have a lot of fun using ASF techniques on her because she's a challenging subject, but I'm not that bothered whether I actually seduce her or not. Anyway, back to the point, I got her to do small favours for me (like make a coffee) which instinctively felt like the right thing to do and made me feel good when she obeyed. I also later asked her to cut my toe nails for me (pushing the boundries) which she refused, but it still felt good that I'd asked. Maybe escalating anti-supplication is the way to go.
1. make me a coffee
2. cut my toenails
3. suck my dick
In between each step, give her a reward (fun, attention, kino etc). I would also speculate that asking an HB10 to do you a small favour is a good alternative to using a neg, and would have much the same effect.
Rio: Implanting the idea of doing it "for her man". Good.
Christopher L. Sands: The reverse is also true. If you supplicate by doing a small favor for them, they have established power over you (at least in their mind). And the most widely regarded tenant on this board is: once she knows she has power, you are no longer a challenge, and guys that are not a challenge are a dime a dozen.
Rio: Isn't it funny how the guys who show no interest in women, sexually, is STILL being a challenge... especially if the chick is a 10?
wayne rasmussen: I would like to disagree. Look at the image of the popular male guy. The brad pits, russell crowes, mick jaggers, etc. What do they have in common, they are sexual guys. They have sex without regrets. Most women want guys who are sexual. Not only does it offer positive benefits for women by having guys who they think experience=great in bed. Take the crack dealers POV, an addict is a better potential customer than a straight laced person. If the guy wants it more often, then her pussy stock goes up. She will think she has more pussy whipping leverage in a relationship. Never mind that the guy won't be just fucking her, because we know that women think that once the guy has her, he won't want anyone else.
Have you ever seen the situation where some guy is considered hot or doable then some rumor comes along that he may be gay (were talking about in circle of friends here not movie stars). Have you noticed how most of the women will drop their interest like flies? It isn't pretty to watch. I have seen it a couple of times in my life when I was in the Navy. One guy turned out to actually be gay, and the other did not. The guy who wasn't suffered some socially. Of course you could say that about other things as well. I have seen people cut people out of their life once they get a fatal cancer.
The trick to doing this requires some damn good acting! I mean... making the negs sound accidental, like they weren't supposed to come out the way they did... and then looking confused as to why she acts the way she does when you've negged her. Also, acting like you are confused and shy yourself when she negs/teases you!
wayne rasmussen: If you want to be subtle, you double meanings and she how she takes it. Good way to expost LSE.
When a 10s sexual control mechanism ISN'T working on you - you are the guy she can't control!
Style: And, Rio, this is EXACTLY how Tony Curtis (or whoever) gets Marilyn Monroe in "Some Like It Hot." As I remember it, he pretends like he has no feeling anymore, and can't even feel any sensation on his lips when someone kisses him. So Marilyn Monroe tries. And when she asks him if he felt anything, he says, "Nothing." So she keeps trying harder and harder. Of course, it's just a movie, but it does reinforce your point: present their sexual control mechanism with a challenge. Thus, they feel like they must seduce you in order to prove their sexual powers TO THEMSELVES. This is another good point, Rio, and I'll have to think of it this way next time I'm out sarging (which will be tonight!).
wayne rasmussen: Assuming you appear as a sexual guy.
BUT, on the other hand, I often talk to girls who've been out on a date, and the guy has paid for everything that she feels obligated to fool around with him.
SuperBobo: "Reciprocation" (if I recall the term correctly) method of persuasion a la Cialdini. *This method of persuasion is frowned upon in ASF, because on the modern dating scene it doesn't work often enough to pay for itself.*
The psychologist said that this kind of supplication works because there are expectations involved: the girl knows that if she lets you take her out and pay for the meal, she's expected to do something in return.
Christopher L. Sands: I would suspect that it takes a bit more than that. Instinct here tells me that the girl must already be somewhat attracted to you for this to work, and, like all of said girl's other dates, once he has paid he must be laid. Some girls get it engrained in their head early on - I would suspect high school. Money is not flowing in high school like it is once a guy has a real job (i.e. out of college) so it is a more valued commodity in high school. The girls at this age probably begin to think that if they are being paid for (i.e. dinner), it must be something special... Also, I would suspect that most high school guys will not continue to pay for a girl if, after 2-3 dates, they don't "get lucky", and consequently drop the girl. After several cycles like this, the girl begins to change her behaviour to get more dates from the guys, i.e. "fooling around". After they learn that this works to keep the guy around, they begin to associate money with sex. Simple conditioning, like Pavlov and his dogs.
Rio: The reciprocation thing will quite easily work on chicks who would be OK about prostituting themselves. Unless you want a chick like that, stay away from paying for shit.
wayne rasmussen: Why pay for shit, when there are plenty who you can get without spending big $.
But all of this brings me back to the original point - I do think that girls who have been subjected to this conditioned response enough will develop a shield for it, much like the dreaded "bitch shield". For instance, what must go through their mind when a guy asks her out? How about - "Well, this means that he is going to pay for dinner, and then is going to expect sex. I am not really interested in sex with him, so I must not go on the date." Thus, she must be initially attracted to him to want to go on the date.
Rio: Or even worse.... the dreaded "any guy who starts a conversation with me just wants to fuck me...." or MORE worse "all men suck... they all just want to fuck me....". Some chicks (as we know ALL TOO WELL) have this Robocop prime directive in their head. These are extreme cases of bitch shields, and require multiple negs and constant reaffirmation that we aren't interested in her sexually - by which point we can make jokes about sex and get her horny that way.....
wayne rasmussen: But, girls with the type of thinking you are talking about will notice you bringing up sex as an SOI. The reason it works is the ground work you laid.
Some chicks, even when you have negged them... continue to test you out by doing things to break your non-sexual approach. This especially happens when you neg chicks in a joking non-serious manner. This turns into flirting and can escalate out of control sometimes..... which is not a good thing. Negging a chick is not a joking matter.... in the sense that it should look accidental.